We’re all VERY familiar with the idea of stealing (and reselling) for profit here in SL, especially where skins are concerned.   Recently, I was directed to the skin store “Insomnia” by a friend, who suggested I take a look at them. Being a avid Redgrave wearer these days, I instantly knew as soon as the shop rezzed that something was amiss. The models posing in the shop entrance looked far too much like the models from Redgrave ads. Needless to say, I snagged up a few packs of demos, and picked them apart, pixel by pixel.
The demos shown in the following pics are “*InSomnia* Masquerade Skin Light DEMOS”. The skins are a blend. Meaning, there are at least 2 skins used in their creation – Redgrave and possible sources from another skin seller in SL. For the purpose of this blog, we will be concentrating on comparing Redgrave skins with Insomnia.  These images speak for themselves.
I’ve spoken with Emilia Redgrave about the discovery and she too is convinced that her skins were used as the base for Insomnia skins. I’m sure after seeing this investigation that she will handle matters in the best way she can.
You be the judge. Look over the images carefully… and decide on your own.
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Hi! I was at a store the other day that was selling obvious Redgrave rip offs, and even giving some of them away for free. I tried to send Emilia Redgrave a note (as did the other people there with me) but is there anything else I can do to get this place shut down? I don’t want to tell anyone the name of the place because I don’t want people going there.
The author of this article is not listed as a writer for SCD.
Is SCD not keeping the writers listing accurate?
Sometimes it is a true case of content theft. And sometimes it isn’t. Just today I had revealed a lookalike to her and she checked and sure enough, it was ripped.. However.. and this isn’t to give away all the secrets, but most designers in SL use skins and templates from other 3D sources. Redgrave most certainly does this.
The only true way to know if it is theft or not is via Redgraves transactions log as to whether the above creator purchased one of her skins and ripped it, or created it themselves with the above tools.
You’d be surprised how many skin creators do this.. Redgrave, Nomine, even Naughty and many many more.
next please…
does anyone care btw?
I just checked them out and I’m pretty sure they aren’t ripped from Redgrave.. perhaps use some of the same sources but not a copy.
That’s just my opinion though. I’m not an expert or anything.
Ahem.. that collarbone in the demo doesn’t look ‘badly blended’ at all.. it looks way more realistic than the one in the Redgrave skin. What’s with that queer habit of praising protruding collarbones? Do you never look into a mirror? Have you never seen a real life collarbone? Hell, that inner edge raises at most some mm over the chest. This highlight in the Redgrave skin that makes it protrude like a door knob is just plain wrong. You can get that effect if you inhale deeply and raise your shoulders, but then the muscles of the neck would also stand out much more visibly…
Also the vulva looks way more realistic.. if that skin is based on the Redgrave skins (which I’m far from convinced of after seeing the pics), it’s definitely an improvement in some areas. I’m feeling tempted to have a closer look at it.
insomnia’s butt looks like she has a celulite, but apart from that, i don’t see much difference/similarity.
@sileny – how did you managed to get the rip off skin and ‘giving some of them away for free’?
So it’s okay to steal as long as you make it better?
Wtf?
i think the insomnia skin’s got much better and smoother details than redgrave one, i don’t know i’m not a skin expert so i can’t tell the if those two are the same or not
Cor, the astroturfers are thick on the ground today, aren’t they?
Absolutely blatant and caught bang to rights. Good spot.
It’s obvious it’s a RG rip off.
And even if it’s better than the original, it doesn’t make it right at all. In fact it’s completely illegal and I hope RG sues the pants off of them. ;D
No, it’s *not* okay to steal – if it is stolen. But these days, everyone cries “stolen!!!” if just a wrinkle is placed at a similar location, at least that’s my impression of the dramas going on. I have no idea whether that skin is stolen or not, and I wouldn’t buy it before the fog has cleared, but it would be nice if it wasn’t.
I’m no skin expert, but I guess if a skin is purely or partly handrawn, or if certain parts are photosourced from an area of the creators own body then then it’s prolly easy for the original creator to prove it’s ripped.
These days it’s so hard to tell as many seem to use the same sources, as a few people have said already.
Now, if I see a similarity in skins (which i do frequently), I don’t like to jump to conclusions unless there is actual proof.
Eva- I don’t understand your question.
The place I went to I found via an advertisement in a group. And the items weren’t similar, they were EXACTLY the same in some cases.
The thing is, Redgrave skins are photo sourced and isn’t it possible that Insomnia are using the same source photo? And following the shading/highlighting as best they can from the source?
In summary – New skin designers do not release new photo sourced skins. Hand draw only. Cancel your subscriptions to 3d.sk, because if any of those models’ photographs were already used by a well known skin designer you will be branded a thief.
This is a public service announcement by — YAWN.
I won’t give a damn about another photosourced skin scandal unless it is being freaked out over by the “victim” skin designer his or herself.
Oh please this is getting old.
EVERYBODY knows that Redgrave take images from the web as base sources for their skins. The above at *best* shows the two creators used the same sources. There is also considerable talk in the content creator world that most of those images are not fully licensed and paid for.
My personal opinion is Emilia will not do anything because she is already on shaky ground herself.
Just check the older clothing yourselves, especially the one where she forgot to totally wipe the DG label from a garment.
Did anyone notice that on the Insomnia skin there appears to be ghosted nipples placed closer to the center of the breast. If you take the top image into Photoshop, after some levels adjustments you can clearly see where the Redgrave skins have highlights the Insomnia one has faint nipples left over from some other different skin.
@ Honey
” but most designers in SL use skins and templates from other 3D sources”
MOST? How do you know this? Thats a slap in the face to people whose skins are legitimate.
Im not saying thievery is ok but hasnt redgrave been caught several times in the past for using content to produce her skins that she should not have been using? How do we know this skin of hers is even legal?
Steal and youre stolen from, cant complain!
The models look similar but at this point in SL, all the white girls look the same. How can you even tell the difference? There is no variety. It is all the same look, same avatar, over the grid, except for the few people that wear hand drawn skins.
Geez; this is incredible. I don’t even know where I can get skins anymore. Am I supposed to give every skin designer the 3rd degree before I fork over my hard-earned Ls? “Do you use templates? Do you photosource? Did you use your own body for this? Do you hand draw these so there’s no possibility anyone can accuse you of theft? Well, did you? Do you? Huh? Huh? HUH?”
I don’t know Redgrave skins very well (and based on the pics above, I will never buy one), so it’s not as easy for me to spot a theft. But geez, in this pic, aren’t the wrinkles and highlights there because they’re supposed to be there? We’re supposed to have knobby knees and pelvic creases and shoulder blades… That’s what bodies are supposed to look like…
Maybe it’s because I don’t even own PhotoShop and I can’t use it to pick people apart, but I just don’t see enough similarities to jump on the “THIEF!” bandwagon.
Also, you say “obviously another skin was used for the pelvic region” without considering the possibility this person drew that particular “pelvic region.”
As far as I’m concerned, skin designers have long run out of original ideas (unless we’re talking about theatrical/dramatic skins a la LionSkins.) Half the notices I get from skin designers touting “New Makeup!!!” look like something I’ve seen before.
excuse me… white girls?
I’m not all for all out political correctness but still……
Only the ghosted nipples and the IDENTICAL fingernails look like evidence to me. Every other photo posted here had me going “um, NO, that’s just how photosourced skins LOOK”. I’m no expert because I dislike photosourced skins and don’t wear ‘em much, but this looks like it might be a case of both creators using the same photo source (s).
In any case, the Insomnia one’s different enough I’m just scratching my head… and wondering, if they DID rip Redgrave’s to start, and changed it that much, why not just create from scratch???
lol@ taking offence to the term “white girls”
Oh man!
@blahblah…exactly….she can’t be serious
I actually thought the “all the white girls look the same” comment was hilarious. I took no offense to it.
@blah blah, soublu383
Back off my Marni!
*burppppppppppppp
wellll its hard to tell if these skins are ripped from redgrave because she stole all hers from the sims 2 and has made so much rl money from someone elses work, you only have to do a little research to see that. how can she complain and whine when she stole in the first place?
Well, nobody would like it if I said “all you blacks look the same” or “all you asians look the same”. If you want equality, you can deal with someone else being offended.
Honestly, I did take a little offense to that myself. All us white girls do NOT look the same. But I think I know Ebony enough to say she really didn’t mean any harm by her comment.
@ Stella
I assume youre playing around but if not..lol I dont even know her. I just find it stupid when people get offended at terms such as “white girls” or “black girls” etc.
Have pride in who you are and dont let other peoples broad statements bother you *Shrug*
–
Alot of black girls in Sl *do* look the same, probably partly because there is not a lot of skin options out there for them.
How that statement is offensive, no clue.
It’s just about racial equality. But whatever. This is a stolen skin post. OMG STOLEN SKINS LOOK! *points*
Racial equality…huh?…actually many “African Americans” prefer the term black…I do.
And second she never said all white girls look the same in rl…but to her they do in sl, for reasons she gave…so I’m lost as the where the racial inequality occurred.
@ blahblah (seriously?)
It’s not a slap in the face, it’s the truth. If you’re the minority and my comment offends you, blame the majority who manipulated other sources and created that common opinion of the market as a whole.
As I said in my comment, it’s simply my OPINION. I’ll slap whoever I want thank you!
Could very well be the same photo sourced material. Maybe if there was some watermarked evidence to prove that it was a direct rip from a Redgrave skin more people would be convinced.
As far as the “white girl” debate I don’t think the person meant any harm. I don’t think I can or should tell anyone how they should feel about something they deem offensive but that’s just how I took it. I’d have to agree with Blablabla a lot of black avi’s look just alike in SL. Once you’ve gone to a party and notice 9 out of 10 other avi’s with the same skin (that damn Redgrave Rihanna skin) you’re wearing you’ll realize somethings a little off.
Back to the topic:
I’ll wait to hear what the Insomia creator has to say.
I just merely meant if someone had said all black girls look the same then it would have a different rise. That’s my opinion anyway. I’m not deeply offended i just think people should be careful perhaps how they phrase things when its going out in a public forum. Evidently Eboni didn’t mean that.
@blahblahblahwhatever
If i want to take offense i will and ill voice it too so nuh nuh nuh
@stella
Lets form some famous 4 type gang and save the village!
lol @ how this ended up being about racial issues.
Given that 75% of the caucasian avis I see wear Redgrave skins… yeah, it’s pretty safe to say that many white girls in SL look the same.
@ wellll its hard to tell if these skins are ripped from redgrave because she stole all hers from the sims 2
Oh really lol means her nearly 100 skins are all from the 1 one SIMS one?? HAHA you gotta be kiddin dude! Better think the other way round …. and stop accussing without thinkin …
Please look at GALA skin!!! they are Redgrave too!!! they mod only face…
and Redgrave skin is not original for me!!! all use same source!!!!
I’m with Eboni here. All us whiteys look the same in many ways in SL. Its a bit boring too. How many full lipped bored face avatars can one stand haha.
Oh ffs, here we go again with the supposed skin thievery.
Regrave doesn’t even make their skins from scratch, THEY ARE PHOTOSOURCED!!! They are more than obviously not hand painted so how can anyone steal from Redgrave when their skin bases aren’t even their own original work? So what if yet another skin store uses the same skin sources, whoopty friggin do. Lets all get the pitch forks and burn down the new place. *rollseyes*
Just for my own curiousity purposes, I went to Insomnia and got a few demos to see what all this was about. The skin base is similar and the makeups/placement is nothing like Redgraves. I didn’t put on the Insomnia demo and think OMGWTF this has been ripped from Redgrave. Actually I didn’t much care for their skins and I do like Redgraves.
All this article does is create drama and I’m rather surprised that the author, Kimberly, didn’t know better and went ahead and wasted her time writing this dramafest. Maybe she should do more studying to see what skins are composed of and where people are getting their skin bases instead of jumping the gun and condemning a skin store for doing what Redgrave, who she says she wears, also does. I think she owes the people of Insomnia an apology.
When someones clearly original work gets ripped, then I’ll start caring. At this point, if you are photosourcing your skins and they look like half the skins in SL, I have no sympathy for you.
BTW, Gala skins have been around a lot longer than Redgrave, so try again with your accusations.
Miss Mirabeau…
May i want u a favour? could u compare another skin in SL with RG Skins??
It does clear you are not understand making skins…
Make new comparison and give me your answer
Best Regards
InSomnia Management
Eden Park
So sick of every new skin designer that comes out being accused of ripping off Redgrave…actually i have tried the Insomnia skins and own some Gala skins….like them both a great deal and don’t like Redgrave at all…same photo source?…maybe…blatant rip?…don’t think so
btw…don’t think all of the caucasian women look the same in SL…some aren’t aspiring to look like a supermodel
if you ask them i mean insomnia Management they does help u .. Why u blacken them by u couldn’t want help ? i think insomnia’s skins looks better than RG
Could these companies get managers that know how to write properly? ffs.
@marni grut
Lets form some famous 4 type gang and save the village!
++++++++++++++++++++++++
What?
I’m with all of those who say this looks like it was likely photo sourced using some of the same materials as the Redgrave skins, which wouldn;t be the same as stealing at all.
Also, from these pictures, I think the new one looks better in many ways than the Redgrave, though neither is really my style.
To be honest, I think I agree with whoever said skinmakers are one of the biggest sources of drama in SL. These are obviously two different skins with slight similarities. There really aren’t that many ways to make skins different, and having creators at each others throats over minor similarities is just silly beyond reason. You’re on the Main Grid, so please, at least try to act like adults. You’re being worse than the Teens who admit their age.
can someone please tell me where it was proven that Redgrave stole anything or lift images from Sim 2? Why are people making all of these very serious accusations against Redgrave without support or evidence? What the hell? If you can’t substantiate your claims, STFU. Make claims like that in RL, your ass will be sued.
Viv, it wasn’t ever proven that Redgrave used Sims 2 skins. I’ve worked with both UV maps and they’re not at all similar… SL’s UV map looks like a hack job, for one (ONE ARM??). It makes no sense to try to make one work with the other.
Rather, there IS a Sims 2 skin that is common which seems to use the same photosource as a Redgrave skin.
I think the jury was out on whether the photosource was copyrighted material or not.
A major SL skin retailer started to list its photosources used in a readme type notecard included with the skin… for obvious reasons. If more skin creators did so, maybe it would stop the theft accusations before they spiral out of control.
@ Oh please
“Regrave doesn’t even make their skins from scratch, THEY ARE PHOTOSOURCED!!! They are more than obviously not hand painted so how can anyone steal from Redgrave when their skin bases aren’t even their own original work?”
I remember having a conversation along the lines of what im going to say on this very message board so Ill keep it short.
There is a HUGE difference between thievery and using the same source.
Do you have any idea the amount of work it takes to make a photosourced skin?
Using the same source is NOT thievery from one another, but taking a skin already altered to fit into the avatar mesh in secondlife, and using it for your own, even if it was photosourced, is theft.
If this person used the same source = not theft
If this person ripped the skin and made her own from it = theft
http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/ee352/slsecret/lolcatsecret.jpg
Hah.
Glad *someone* understood the point of my SL Secret.
Well the skin was definitely ripped. Too many similarities to of just came from the same source. 5 people can use the same source and they wont end up with shading in the EXACT spot.
Take this photo for example:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3571/3339043217_66cc941eb7_b.jpg
The first circle, looks like she was sun burnt on the top of her arm and the bottom is pale… Same thing on the insomnia skin. You dont get similarities like that from simply using the same source photo. It was ripped.
Anyway, that secret was hilarious, and quite frankly these posts are quite old. thievery happens to everyone at some point.
All are speaking of copied and changed things.. this one tried to change.. (i will not say its right what he did) .. but others just copy.. and sell.. without even try to change.
There is only one chance.. i validated my acc with my passport. So every one can have only one acc… and second pay acc.. like the Lindens want it… all accounts will have same passport number and the Lindens can see who is who… You CAN make it now.. but you dont HAVE TO… this is the problem. If the people would be need to validate with passport number before they get an account.. we would have less problems. But the Lindens would have one.. they could not say “1.5millions people logged in last month”… that is the problem.. they would loose accounts.. but they do not think about that they would only loose bots and second avs.
Alaska is not good put the sources of the skin u made. Why? Cos one of the thing that takes more time to do a skin is choose the right sources, if you put and your skin sells a lot, u only are making easy to your competitors, and even if are legal, you will end with copycats using the same sources. But also will be people that will rip ur skin, overlay on eloh skin and say that used ur sources or people that just will rip and say the same, cos people is so ignorant that thinks that for using the same sources u end with the same skin.
The only way that skins can be the same is using legal SKIN sources like eloh or smerza skins, then it will end with almost exact shading and highlights if they haven’t been hard manipulated. But using sources like 3d.sk or other sites from real persons is nearly imposible have the same shading/lighting maybe similar if you took another skins as reference but never the same.
Idk if there are another skin sources that is using redgrave, gala or insomnia, or if they share or in reality are the same creators, who knows. But these are not eloh or smerza sources
“Alaska is not good put the sources of the skin u made. Why? Cos one of the thing that takes more time to do a skin is choose the right sources, if you put and your skin sells a lot, u only are making easy to your competitors, and even if are legal, you will end with copycats using the same sources.”
Totally agree
Hmmmm… so you’re saying by putting your sources, i.e. “I used 3d.sk and personal photos for this skin” copybotter’s will just whine they used 3d.sk also and THAT’S why the skins look the same? I guess that’s a problem too.
Yeah. I guess the solution is work from the legal bases that are opensource, start from scratch and handdrawn, or take your own photos of a nude model. And even then give credit, ie. “I started with an Eloh base” or “all the photo sources were taken by me in RL using my own camera”.
Or give up and not even enter an already flooded skin market. Maybe try SHOES. I like SHOES.
2009/03/22 7:38] Ernest Eames: Hi Dean
[2009/03/22 7:38] Second Life: User not online – message will be stored and delivered later.
– Instant message logging enabled –
[7:59] Dean Ashby: Hi Ernest ..sorry for the non reply ..had massive Rl work
[7:59] Ernest Eames: np
[8:00] Dean Ashby: so ..:-)
[8:00] Ernest Eames: so do you know what happened?
[8:01] Dean Ashby: Emilia told me you wrote her due to a blog
[8:01] Ernest Eames: yes
[8:02] Ernest Eames: u know the website?
[8:02] Dean Ashby: yeah i had a quick look
[8:03] Ernest Eames: u have connection about make this blog ?
[8:03] Ernest Eames: i know emilia professional in SL but i have to ask this
[8:03] Dean Ashby: no ..we never do this ..we dont even do interviews lol
[8:03] Ernest Eames: so what u offer us to clean this ?
[8:04] Dean Ashby: actually this blog wrote something really bad about us too .the ridicilous SIms stealin story ..maybe you read
[8:06] Dean Ashby: what made me a bit thinkin was ..that one part of the body where we as only creator in SL up to now do something different to all other creators is the exct same as yours ..not saying that you steal or something ..
[8:07] Dean Ashby: but its obvious .. the highlights and other stuff could be surely your work ..as bodies look not that different in RL
[8:08] Dean Ashby: actually we never palnned to write any DMCA or something ..cause i didnt really care what this blog writes
[8:08] Dean Ashby: people need some drama it seems
[8:10] Ernest Eames: yes but most ppl looks this blog and making bad things about us
[8:10] Dean Ashby: they do about us too
[8:13] Dean Ashby: cause i know they more u care and answer to this ..the more ppl will search for more drama
[8:14] Dean Ashby: we also didnt wrote something about the Sims story ..even it was ridicilous and not true
[8:15] Dean Ashby: my suggestion to you .. if you think doing something ..make an official statement in that blog with pictures of your body with photoshop layers to proof the people that their acusations are wrong
[8:16] Dean Ashby: or just keep quiet like we do .. because we wont answer to any crap they write … we knoe we dont steal and we dont need to prove
[8:17] Dean Ashby: Sl is a strange place
[8:18] Ernest Eames: yes
[8:18] Ernest Eames: but this is hurted to us
[8:18] Ernest Eames: we care what ppl does think about us .. and we are not stealer
[8:18] Dean Ashby: i can imagine … The SIms story wasnt good for us either ..but noone could proof
[8:19] Dean Ashby: and in the end it turned out that the sims skin was stolen from us lol
[8:20] Dean Ashby: if you really worry bout this blog ..make an official statement to proof you dont steal .. but Redgrave wont write anything there .. i hope u understand
[8:21] Ernest Eames: ok i understand
[8:21] Ernest Eames: ty Dean
[8:21] Dean Ashby: thank you Ernest for writing
[8:21] Ernest Eames: ty for answering
Dean Ashby: RG Boss
Ernest Eames: InSomnia Manager
how you make up this blog and pics Kimberly ?
” you are a big liar and this is last post in this blog. We’re not to take into consideration from now on ”
Byby
Pics or STFU.
i think you need a real life lolllllllllllllllllllllllllllll~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ who the fuck cares seriously people dying wars… famine ….
and all you think is about silly skins in a silly game ~!and you went all thu this trouble to show all this crap i didnt even read it waste of my 5 min! good luck!!!!!!hahaim evil i know! kiss my ass
Quite obviously stolen..just like half of the male (crappy) male skins these days either use dante or scorpio (Naughty and abyss) as a source, and poorly draw something other on top of it. It’s so obvious. As a skin creator i can clearly see these lines are just copied. No one else had highlights and such as redgrave, and now *suddenly* alot of stores have these same highlights (like check out their highlights on the arms and legs – a few lines acros the legs). It’s pretty sad about half of the skins in SL are just recycled other ones. Some people need to get some talent somewhere themself
For all those people who don’t see the simularities: It’s clearly that you really don’t have a clue what you are talking about, so those opinions are not really worth much…It’s like asking a dog about politics. lol
Redgrave skins are photosourced, redgrave evem took skins from the sims. So how can they be ripped? Redgrave also photosources all their clothes, sometimes leaving the original bran on, Redgrave is the one who should be sued by rl designers. Ugg.
another whiney ass… seriously.. to be this far driven to pick it apart .. theres something I heard long ago that stays true here "Add legs to the snake after you have finished drawing it."
Some of the 'similar shadings' can be because it's just natural to shade in a certain area… like in the back I dont see similarity but just naturally you know that the spine is kinda dark, lightens up, darkens at the sides. Also it's very likely, someone had mentioned above, to have the same photo source. While looking up models I found alot of facial details commonly used…
I'd say the giveaway is in something that wasn't highlighted specifically. In the hand there is a strange knuckle next to the pinky that curves… it's too unique. Hands have got to be one of the hardest things to place which is why I wouldn't consider it to be coincidence… even with the same photosource.