A rhino trying to be a unicorn? Could the irony get any thicker?
Over the past couple of weeks a SL group has sprung up on Flickr named “Thinspo!” and run by Guy Seiling. I heard about it early last week because a good friend of mine is recovering from a bought of eating disorder and the invitation rather disturbed her.
Dakota Buck’s previously rounder shape, before her modifications for a more “svelte” look.
“It’s not healthy.” That’s about all she had to say about it as a recovering anorexic… and she even briefly considered if her AVATAR was too thin, and that’s why her Flickr image had been invited. Dakota Buck found herself being jokingly invited to the group by a friend because her avatar has recently “lost weight” from her once rounded figure.
Guy’s group front page says this:
Guy Seiling (a group admin) says:
18 May 08 – This is a group only for SKINNY avies. Show us what is really beautiful!
^.~
THIN IS IN!
Thin is in? Skeletal, like the images promote? I wondered earlier in the week if the group was a parody, so I messaged Guy about it.
From: |
|
|---|---|
Subject: | is not a joke. |
| Hi Tenshi, this is not a joke. Im completely pro Ana/Mia. i know, for some people this is nonsense, but not for me…. and I made the group just for +18 years. I dont have the intention to influence nobody with this, only share with the lean people who like and has its avies. sorry about my english, Im brazilian and my mother language is portuguese. I wait to have answered you *kisses and hugs* Guy Seiling |
Oh. Fantastic, thanks for clearing that one up, Guy. There are thirteen members in the Thinspo group – ironically, one of which is Swirly Cyclone. Of course, we all know Swirly’s sense of humour, and I wonder why Swirly hasn’t been booted out yet if the group is for “thin people only”.
Dakota Buck and Stephanie Misfit carried the discussion about this group over to the SLUniverse.com forums, and it’s receiving a lot of feedback there – some very sensitive feedback too, as this is obviously a very personal issue.
Personally, I believe that while there is such a thing as a “healthy” weight, eating disorders can hit both directions – over and under. I’m referring to extreme cases here, as the human body accepts the weight it feels best at usually… and we control our SL sliders.
With that in mind, and the idea that the rest of us with “normal” body types and “normal” avatars might be viewed as “completely fat” to these pro-ana groups, I’ve created the Fatso in SL group on Flickr. Yes, I’m making light about a very serious problem, but that’s how I deal with things.
If you join the group, you’ll find a discussion with an explanation about why I created the group:
Hey guys
tenshivielle says:This stems from the recent promotion of Thinspo in SL, which many of us disagree with. Eating disorders – under or over – are a scary thing, and shouldn’t be promoted with groups. (Especially online where impressionable young women and men can be easily influenced by these things!)
“Fatso” is a tongue in cheek term. Are you a real-sized person with a real-sized avatar? Join up!
Posted at 10:06PM, 28 May 2008 EDT
I’d also have to point out that many models on the catwalk (that you see in after-photos) have been photoshopped all to heck. These proportions are hard to reach for a real life human being, but photoshop works fine… right?
SL is full of kids these days, we need to acknowledge that and at least try to act like the responsible adults that we can be. The kids are impressionable. Drama is one thing, but this? Yikes.
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Kota showed me that group and honestly, I was horrified. I have nothing against people with thin avatars (my own is thin), but the promotion of skeletal avatars as a pro-ana message is appalling and socially irresponsible.
People can create their avatars in whatever form that pleases them, I am not arguing against that. But if you read the message Guy Seiling is sending out to people who are potentially vulnerable (in REAL LIFE), you’ll see that this issue extends well beyond SL. It’s not only pictures of anorexic SL avatars being posted in this group, there’s pictures of RL anorexic looking models being posted as “thinspiration” too. And when you add to this Guy Seiling’s commentary under the pictures, it becomes even more disturbing:
“Thin is in!
Thin is beautiful!
U don’t need suggar. Suggar is poison.”
“I LOVE anorexic girls
)) ”
“Why in SL we not seen fat avies?
Because fat is ugly, even in SL…
So, if u not agree, make yr avies FAT!
and let me be thin and beautiful!”
“I didn’t eat yesterday
And I’m not going to eat today
And I’m not going to eat tomorrow
‘Cuz I’m going to be a supermodel!”
And I don’t care if this pisses certain people off, I am going to say it because it needs to be said – why on earth is FACES, a successful SL modelling agency, endorsing this kind of irresponsible, sick behaviour by supporting this individual?
And don’t bother commenting on Guy’s pictures to question what she is doing – my comments were all deleted and they were hardly offensive.
You know, I usually try to keep rather neutral, but I’d like to add my two cents in this particular discussion.
I, too, received an invite to this group from Guy in response to one of my avi’s Flickr pictures. My first response was that of self consciousness (yes, guys get self conscious too!), never really viewing my character as being too thin. I then decided to look into this group a bit more thoroughly, and what I found was quite disturbing. I found myself being offended, and even a bit anxious over the fact that a viewpoint such as this could be maintained by anyone.
The mindset that having this illness is something to be proud of is, to me, ridiculous. And the opinion that being sickly thin is what is”really beautiful” is utterly inane, ignorant, and arrogant. Forgive me if I risk sounding too cliche, but I am a true believer of beauty is what lies within. How much you weigh does not determine what kind of person you are, how you treat and effect others in your daily life, or your desires and goals as a human being. And those, in my opinion, are what determines if someone is “really beautiful”.
True beauty rest within your soul, your mind, and your hearts desires. Physical aesthetic beauty is in the eye of the beholder, of which the truly beautiful are always wide open.
*cringe* FACES supports this? Cue the “vendetta!!!” screamers.
@nicolas
Amen! So great to hear that from a guy, or anyone for that matter! Our lives (1st and 2nd) have really become way to much about what the person looks like on the outside.
and for my own random thought:
I suddenly feel like my avi is fat, as I have not been invited into this group, yet, and am a FACES model.
J/K
When I bought the shape for my avi, I wanted a look that was not too thin, not too thick, in other words REALISTIC. My shape is actually designed after Scarlett Johanssen- an actress in Hollywood who as of yet has not confirmed to the “stick-thin-lollipop-head look.”
I doubt FACES would say they support this, but Guy models for them and Aradia Dielli has defended her stance using “pro-freedom” justification here http://www.flickr.com/photos/aemilia_case/2527119993/
There’s what you say you support, then what you are SEEN to be supporting. I’d say the responsible thing to do would be to kick her ass out of that agency. There’s a huge percentage of underage, easily infuenced girls in SL who could be affected by this crap, and people who could potentially act as role models for those kids should act responsibly. And don’t tell me it’s not your problem because SL is supposed to be for over 18s – we all know that is not the reality.
I was seriously – and very personally – disturbed by this group when I was made aware of it (and even have friends in it who might not have seen/understood it was proudly tagged as a pro-ana group).
I do understand building your AV in the image that you find most beautiful – that’s not the issue for me. But promoting a pro-ana group leads me to believe that the group owner has no idea what real anorexia nervosa (not merely “model thin”) does to a body…and a mind over time. It’s no joke and it’s NOT art.
that was not supposed to be a wink…
/me is not winking
As a member of FACES AND as someone who has battled extreme body image distortion in the past, I was just as shocked and horrified as Stephanie says she was when I first saw Guy’s shameless promotion of (what I can only assume REALLY is) her destructive lifestyle on Flickr. I don’t have any control over how the situation is handled higher up in the agency, but because I really love the work that I get to do with FACES, I hope that she will be given a choice between pridefully flaunting her disorder and staying in the agency.
-Moisie Swindlehurst.
From:
FlickrHQ
Subject:
Your request to join Thinspo° in Second Life has been declined
Hi tenshivielle,
Your request to join Thinspo° in Second Life has been declined.
The group administrator gave the following reason:
Mrs. Tenshi….go eat banana or take care of yr Tweety.
if u want attencion, hang a watermellon in your neck.
I think this is disgusting for one. And I hate that this has alot to do with the media and whatnot now a days. People need to grow up and realize stuff like this isn’t a joke.
But i’d just like to point out the that world is slowly changing and rejecting this whole “unrealistically thin” stuff. As a wannabe model myself, I know that a modeling agencies I applied to will not accept me because I am “unhealthily thin”.
I really honest to god hope that one day the media will stop pressuring people and models will once again be healthy and good role models again so things like this stop.
I left FACES due to this.
Really? Wow.
@ Tenshi
*giggles at the decline*
@ the post
I’ve done my share of body changing in second life. There were times when I don’t even notice how thin I’ve gotten in second life, to the point where someone HAD to point it out to me that I was getting too thin. I can’t say I am totally innocent about being a little “thin”. But there’s really a difference between being a little clueless in how your body looks and having a total all-out stance in pro-ana.
Why does one have to look thin to be beautiful? Is that how we are living our lives now — totally malnourished so that we can look good in clothes and to feel like we are accepted?
There have been MANY times in my life where I felt fat however I’ve never gone so far as to starve myself to vomit to get my ideal weight. Being thin that way is not beautiful, it’s absolutely disgusting.
Do you know what being an anorexic entails? I think people who are “pro-ana” need to research their ‘hobby’.
1. Anorexics have weak bones and teeth resulting in bone loss and teeth loss.
2. Anorexics die early from lack of nutrition. Sometimes their body rejects food because food because so unfamiliar to their bodies that it becomes alien.
3. Anorexics have very low self esteem and no matter how thin they are, they are NEVER thin enough
4. Anorexics die early. If you’ve seen documentaries of real anorexics, you know that they don’t live past their 40th birthday. Do you want that?
I can’t stress enough how upsetting this is. I get it that second life is a place to embrace your individuality and your creativity as a person. However we can only go so far as to become totally sickening. Pro-ana is not something to be glorified. It’s an ugly stance on a very ugly disease, and there’s no way I can support it.
-Portia <3
—Intelligence has passed this one on too. Who called it? Tenshi did!!! Forwarded to me over Flickr by Swirly. —
From:
Swirly Cyclone
Subject:
Swirly is simply devastated!
Why oh why? Swirly just cannot understand it darling!
From: FlickrHQ
Subject: You have been banned from the Thinspo° in Second Life Group
Hi -
You have been banned from the Thinspo° in Second Life group. You will not be able to rejoin this group unless a group administrator removes the ban.
Note: This message has been sent to you by FlickHQ on behalf of Thinspo° in Second Life. If you want further clarification about the reason behind you being banned, you’ll need to follow up with someone from the group, because FlickrHQ has no say in an individual Group’s administration.
Good for you Phoenix! Nice to see some integrity
This is absolutely horrifying.
I am guessing Guy is building up her ban list from this very group of commenting crowd!
-Portia <3
I might try to join just to see if my decline message is as comical as the one Tenshi got.
I agree with Steph, go Pheonix! That’s a very admirable step for you to take and I applaud you for it. We all know it can be hard to stand up for your own opinions against a group or friends. It’s one reason why the whole pro-ana movement is such a worry.
I had always had respect for Guy, i like her photography and she’s always been a good person to me, but when she posted this on flicker, all respect I had for her vanished. There is nothing beautiful or attractive in making yourself unhealthy, and yes, I’m sensitive to this because i have had close friends go through this. It ISN’T glamourous, and its so sickening to me that this is how Guy decides to value life. WAKE UP. Instead of backing something that hurts people, try uplifting the fact that everyone is beautiful, and there is no one standard of beauty.
(I agree with Nicolas.)
This is not a new issue within Second Life culture. Not long ago Grazia Horwitz of Second Style wrote about Nolita’s ‘No Anorexia’ ads. The story of the young lady who poses in those ads should be a deterrent to glamorizing this type of pro-ana propaganda. I’m sure many of our residents can relate to this.
This situation with Guy’s Flickr group may serve as a catalyst. In-world modeling agencies must now be very aware of the underlying tones of who they promote in their model portfolio. Though, having a thin avatar doesn’t necessarily mean the person behind the computer screen is pro-ana, publicly promoting this culture is a completely different ballgame. And I hope this doesn’t turn into the usual dramafest witch hunt.
If this brings about more awareness in model selection and making such ideologies socially acceptable in-world, all the better for the controversy. Positive change can only be put into action when things like this happen come into the light.
I have a “real size” avi – the equivalent of an RL 10-12 (the size of an average American woman, which is, ironically, larger than the so-called “plus-sized” models). I have been adamant about not changing my avi’s size for all the reasons stated here. But I wonder if SL fashion designers realize how much they contribute to the thinnification of SL by making certain objects non-mod, ostensibly to prevent piracy? I don’t know how many boots/strappy shoes I’ve had to eschew because they won’t fit my calves…it’s all well and good to tell young girls that their bodies are fine as long as they’re healthy, but actions speak louder than words, and in every way, our society screams that the thin are a privileged elite and that the zaftig are outsiders.
Correction:
If this brings about more awareness in model selection and making such ideologies socially UNACCEPTABLE ….
That there are issues like this about “weight” in second life is altogether bizarre to me, but it doesn’t make that group any less reprehensible. I can’t even fathom that it -needed- to be stated that pro-anorexia and bulimia rhetoric is damaging and sick.
I just wanted to say that I thought it was incredibly ballsy of Stephanie Misfit to voice the question we all were thinking.
And I have a great deal of respect for the way Phoenix answered it.
Guy. Shame on you.
Anorexia and bulimia are very serious mental conditions that arise from body dysmorphic disorder. This disorder causes a significant percentage of the teenage population to do irreparable harm to their bodies. Being a nutritionist, I know what malnutrition can do to a body. Intestines atrophy and die, follicles cease hair production, eyesight fails, skin dries up and loses collagen, early onset osteoporosis and alzheimer’s as well as a lower resistance to a viral or bacterial infection. Your body can even stop making hormones, making it impossible to have children and increasing your chances of having ovarian or breast cancer. So, for all those lovely juts and angles that you prize so much now, you might not be so fond of them when you are a 50 year old bag of bones that has to be fed thru a feeding tube and have to use a wheelchair because your brittle bones break easily and don’t have the capability to repair themselves. Even as much as 2 years of malnutrition can shave 20 years off your life.
Promoting a lifestyle like this is worse than promoting a life of methamphetamine or cocaine use because not every kid can get their hands on drugs, but every kid can stick their finger down their throats. Any group that condones this sort of public behavior by a member is just as guilty as the person doing it.
This sickens me, but not enough to make myself hurl. My wonderfully greasy chinese food dinner was good, but food is always better going down than coming up.
Oh and I’m no skinny minnie in RL. CHUBBY PRIDE Y’ALL!
From Flickr:
tenshivielle says:
Hi, I’m an admin for a group called Fatso in SL, and we’d love to have this added to the group!
Add this Photo to Fatso in SL?
Thanks Tensh! I carry my booty with pride!
And Phoenix: *claps*
Tenshi, congratulations on presenting yet another current topic. Having been anorexic myself, I’m particularly sensitive about such matters. And no, the sight isn’t pretty.
Eating disorders are diseases and I feel really bad seeing people promoting them as a lifestyle choice.
My avie is the exact replica of my body as it is now, same proportions, and I’m not changing it for anyone – I know it has cost me modelling jobs (god only knows how many times people have asked me to make my butt and boobs smaller) but I don’t care. The funny thing is that I’m a part-time model in RL and my measurements have never been considered big. I guess the SL community has more issues than we think.
That’s why I’m proud to be part of Ewing Fashion Agency. Back in March, a unique show was organized with a strong message against eating disorders, where models wearing extremely thin shapes, to show everyone how real anorexics look like, united their voices in the fight against these damaging health issues. You can read all about it in the April issue of ALTAMODA magazine (http://www.altamodamagazine.com) and my personal RL story in the following two issues. Then decide for yourself if looking famished is what real beauty is about.
Be proud of your body and don’t listen to anyone saying otherwise!
OH WILLIS *slaps self* I had a request to put a pic in the pool and just clicked yes (I click randomly lots, ask anyone!
), this really is why I should read what it’s about and not just accept invites for pictures to join random pools!
I’m all for people doing whatever floats their boat, but I don’t really think my AV is all that thin tbh and I know I am definately not thin in RL, and after battling a disorder myself in RL, I personally don’t really think its the kinda thing I wanna have my picture in! /removes pic from pool
That is all I have to say about it! I’m taking the *silent* approach, cos I really don’t know what to make of it all.
and, AGAIN, brazilians do something to make me proud about ¬_¬.
this is offensive and sick in so many levels i don’t even know where to start.
Truly disturbing and – like Steph said – socially irresponsible. It’s not promoting a “lifestyle”, unless slow suicide is defined as one.
Stein: I think that description must have made some people think twice about having finger for dessert, were they considering that :X Body dysmorphic disorder is not considered to be related to anorexia nervosa or bulimia though, the disturbed body image is similar but it’s closer to the OCD spectrum as far as I know.
ick. it’s too early yet for me to process the skin-crawliness of this, so just ICK. note to self: up the booty sliders when you get inworld later.
Im not one that normally comments I usually try to keep rather neutral but when i was flicking threw flickr and come across aems page about this group i was horrified an i spoke to aems in world about it again i thought it was all tongue an cheek an i hoped it was but after then looking at guys stream an her images an her messages we can clearly see its not..
but again have a look at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/keikomorigi/2531414307/
you will see alot of views there as well on this with keikos own strong statement about this
Many anorexics deny having a problem; however, some do recognize their eating disordered behavior, but do not know what to do to fix it.
I think you may need to find out more about this debilitating DISEASE! It not a matter of positive thinking or exercise. Anerexics exercise continuously and starve themselves. It is a mental and physical disease. Believe me if it was just a matter of thinkning positive there wouldn’t be an issue. This is often coupled with depression and anxiety. This disease is a control issue and often stems from traumatic events in ones life wher eall controlk is taken from them, therefore food is the only thing they can and do control, however ironically it ends up controlling them…empathy is what you need to practice not preaching .
I refuse to see skeletons on my catwalk we even tell them to up there sliders if we do think there to thin if they want to join.
disturbing i know….
@ Phoenix, I really have a lot of respect for you for doing that, I am sure it was not easy.
I had my av to skinny when I first started SL, my friends kept calling me chicken legs. I looked at some of my old photos and thought, what was I thinking. So I modified my shape to give myself some ass and curves and I am very happy with it now. I am rarely shocked by anything, but this whole thing of supporting anorexics really got to me. A good point was made in one of the earlier posts, there is healthy thin, as some people are just built that way, but it seems what Guy is promoting is don’t eat so that you appeal to the fashion world, which I don’t think works anymore. Even Victoria’s Secret is trying to change its image.
Okay. I remember this discusion about some anti anorexia billboards (with a really skinny anorectic girl on them) on second style blog some time ago. Not sure what I wrote there and I am too lazy to try and search for it…but I remember someone saying somthing like when an anorectic girls sees something like thats she won’t think..”whoa thats horrible”..but she will think..”wow I want to be like that!” so it really is no help…only makes it worse. Some time ago I accidentaly got onto some 15 yeras old girls blog about anorexia with thinspo photos an stuff like that..and I was horrified. I found out there are more pages like that..with crazy diets, blog posts from girls that are afraid of going to doctor cause he would tell her she is too thin and send her to hospital…blog posts about how they got home from that hospital and tried to loose the weight they gained again. Totally creepy stuff. And when I saw this group on flickr I had the same feeling. One could say…whats the matter..they are just avatars. But those avatars could be “inspiration” for rl girls..and encouraging somoene in anorexy is just horrible. Those girls get so thin they die dammit!
I wonder why someone thinks it is beautiful and in to look like a skeleton. As far as I know most of the men like girls with some curves. They don’t want to cuddle with a skeleton…they dont want to be afraid to “get freaky” with the girl cause she could break under them
. They want something to grab. They want some nice clevage and not a clothes hanger. No I am not a guy but I have seen a disscusion about this on a few places and it usually turned out like this.
I was trying to finish reading trough this discusion and found a link to the second style post I wrote about..and found what I said. Seems like my opininon kind of changed already..as did the shape of my avatar which is now less tall and more curvy than it used to be. Oh well I guess I kind of opened my eyes. When I found some stuff on the net I realised what I thought is not such a problem anymore is maybe even worse now.
Still I think that billboard would not help much..cause those “thinspo” blogs have bunches of images like that posted as inspiration. The girls arent scared of it. They want to be like it.
I feel the need to state here that if anyone feels they’re being harassed by Aradia Dielli in-world because of their comments here, please make sure you take the proper steps to ensure this isn’t a reoccurring penalty for commenting at Shopping Cart Disco. I’m afraid I lack the ability to do anything about this myself.
Aradia is harassing people in world about their comments? -.- Okayyyy…
-Portia <3
There are barely any words to describe what personal pain and deep-seated agony causes someone to destroy their bodies for the sake of ‘beauty’ or ‘perfection’ or ‘control’. My heart aches for women caught in that horrific spiral. If Guy is one of them, my compassion is there as well. The mind can become so twisted by this disease. I hope for freedom for those lost inside it.
Pro-Ana is sickening in every way, and goes against the heart of humankind. It is a very wretched thing to encourage and preach a message of death.
shame on those who wish decay and death on others. shame. on. them.
Guy doesn’t appear to be looking for help, Thema. S/he appears to be reveling in the disorder, if they do indeed have it and this isn’t some kind of game.
I never ever comment on blogs, not unless it’s to say “thanks” or “hi”. I normally keep out of it. But…
The group is just gross. Plain and simple.
It’s irresponsibility in its purest form. I’m sad that FACES has commented in the way they have. I’m certainly not anti-thin, I’m not against having your AV look the way you want it to, whatever that may be. That said…
As a designer, who has been contemplating using an in-world agency I can definitely say my choices just got narrowed down. I simply can’t support such things and still consider myself a decent person. On a business level, I would never want to work with any group or individual who was supportive in any way about such things.
Eating disorders ARE a mental health issue, not unlike addictions, manic depression or any other psychological disorder. Perhaps the next thing we’ll see is a Pro-Ana store open in SL, chalk full of laxatives, binge-eating supplies, size 00′s and some amphetamines.
All I can say is, the group makes me sad, FACES makes me sad and I truly feel deep compassion for those suffering with eating disorders.
I feel the need to comment a bit more on my leaving FACES. I did leave FACES because after a long discussion with Aradia about removing Guy from the group for being pro-ana, and being turned down, I didn’t want to be associated in any small way with this unhealthy attitude towards such a serious disease. Aradia was not convinced that Guy was actually pro-ana, rather she was just trying to get some attention. Whether that is true or not, I can’t endorse it in either case. After further discussion with someone else in FACES in which she was shown more images from Guy’s flickr stream, Aradia decided to talk more to Guy, and Guy stepped down from FACES so as to not cause any undue embarrassment or problems.
I don’t believe Aradia is pro-this sort of thinking though, because when we first opened FACES there was a model that was very very thin in her interview and pictures, and we were worried about her self-image, and what she would represent. And that girl is not with FACES now.
Oh, and I’m still not going to be back with FACES.
I totally agree, this is sad and disturbing. I get the point, but allow me to side-swerve for a moment…
I just have to say – I find it kinda ironic (and even more disturbingly sad), if I’m looking at the right flickr here…and if that’s her ava, Guy’s ava isn’t even anywhere NEAR as thin as some (majority?) of the model-y sorts in SL or “high fashion” in general. I was expecting to see one of those pinch-faced, face-lifted, bobble-head looking thin avas…not an ava with thighs and curves. I would say she’s even a little more beefy than your average 10 ft tall glamazon.
Okay…back to yer regularly scheduled programming. :p
@ Tenshi
“Guy doesn’t appear to be looking for help, Thema. S/he appears to be reveling in the disorder, if they do indeed have it and this isn’t some kind of game.”
I know, but I don’t need to see someone asking for help to feel sorry for them if they have a disorder. As I said, the mind can become twisted by this disease. I don’t rule out hope for people caught inside it (for instance, if Guy actually has the disorder), even if they do despicable things. The actions are deplorable, but the people are redeemable.
I was talking with a fellow model recently about how I have not touched my shape since I started modelling in SL, and it is still the basically the same shape I created when I was just a few days rezzed… face mods only to compliment skin changes etc. – She likewise is happy with her identity as a model and sees no reason to change. But we have both seen a trend recently where the models around us seem to be getting taller and thinner, legs impossibly long and hips vanishing. It’s alarming to say the least.
SL seems to be packed with groups that many of us find disturbing; age players, neo nazis and the like… this just hits us in the fashion community especially hard. I would love to see an initiative by modelling agencies to refuse to hire models, male and female, that have ridiculously thin avatars, especially those who are openly pro-ana… and I would like the designers using those agencies to support this by stating that they do not want their creations marched down the runway on bodies that fail to represent some minimal standard of proportional balance.
Anorexia and Bulemia are very unfortunate diseases, It saddens me that some feel the need to celebrate them.
Y-U-C-K. Pro-Ana makes me want to barf, and not in a good way. I have a friend who was anorexic and this is just a kick in the face really.
@Stein: Pro Chubby alright! My avatar IS a big girl for SL standards, short and with a butt and hips, and my RL self (as can be seen on Flickr…) is even more plus sized and has always been.
To be called fatso by apparently mentally disturbed people, be it in RL or SL, is no fun. Promoting killing yourself by starving yourself to death is even less fun. And why don’t those pro-ana avatars have all the RL issues of anorexic people, like yucky bad teeth and hair and other even less pleasant things I’m not gonna mention in public.
@Tenshi: You’re evil, you made them kick out poor Swirly! *grins*
If Guy did not actually have an eating disorder it would be even more disturbing… Don’t get me wrong I dont want her to have one..I don’t want anyone to have one..but it could be a bit more understandable that she has a kinda twisted point of view if she had it. But if she was okay and made other people think they should be unhealthily skinny or even anorexic it would be really really disgusting and unaceptable in every point of view and calling herself an artist won’t help that in any way.
“I feel the need to state here that if anyone feels they’re being harassed by Aradia Dielli in-world because of their comments here, please make sure you take the proper steps to ensure this isn’t a reoccurring penalty for commenting at Shopping Cart Disco. I’m afraid I lack the ability to do anything about this myself.”
While I have never been approached by Aradia in-world, I have been “warned” by others involved with FACES to be careful what I comment on Shopping Cart Disco, as they view Tenshi as a “witchhunter.” Personally, this irrated me a good bit, because I believe we are ALL allowed to our own views (with the exception of the whole pro-ana thing, ‘cuz that is just SICK) and should be able to post them in any blog, without being “harrassed” from anyone, including anywhere we may work.
Oh my goodness, this is beyond disturbing! Linden Lab should disband the group. Have they been told about this?
As A DJ, can I say that Guy’s use of the lyrics from the Jill Sobule Song are somewhat commical. Maybe it is a cultural issue, but I don’t think she gets it. The song is not Pro-Ana, it is in fact tongue in cheek and making the modelling industry and teenagers obsessions with being models look rediculous. I took a look thru the Thinspo Flickr group, and have to say I wasn’t shocked by the SL images so much as the inclusion of the RL Top 10.
I have always said SL is full of broken people. We all have a void in our lives, or have been damaged, or have illnesses or social challenges. I believe it, and the more I get to know people, the more it proves to be true. It is a matter of degrees, not everyone is a full on basket-case, but we all get hooked into SL but good when we find something we are missing in our RL.
What gal hasn’t wished she was a size (or 8 in my case) smaller to fit into that fabulous outfit while out shopping? I think we all think about it, but it doesn’t mean we hate ourselves, it really means we wish that fashion in the real world was designed for real bodies.
In SL, I am not a model. First of all, I cannot walk a straight line on a Class 5 server with not a prim rezzed out of 15,000. I am a total klutz. (I give the models props for wadding thru the lag and still managing to do it well, it’s kind of like a game of frogger… can they make it down the runway without getting hit by a car! That is some gamin’ skills y’all!) I have not changed my shape since pretty much week 1, when I realized my melon was too big for prim hair (didn’t know it was mod *lol*). I am a fashion addict, but I love my curves, and have at times wished that I could go a bit more curvy, a little more like my RL proportions. But I am attached to my avatar and not really ready for that. I have to say, I made a skirt shape, but depending on the skirt in the outfit, sometimes I don’t wear it, I like a big sexy badonka-donk sometimes (so does my man).
Anorexia, Bulemia… been there a little, it is a sad and very isolated place. I hope I never go back. I wish Guy well, but find her comments about Fat being Ugly even in SL pretty durn offensive. I say to each his own, but the minute you start labelling what is and is not ugly for anyone but yourself, you open yourself up criticism. I say “Tenshi… Make Me a Watermelon Necklace Too!”, cause I want attention for NOT being invited to the Thinspo group and NOT thinking that Guy is a very attractive individual, no matter what her avatar looks like!
(P.S. Seriously, can someone make me a sculptie Giant Watermelon Necklace! I would so wear that and Blog about how cool it is to be in the Watermelon Girl Sisterhood. Watermelon shaped bods are just fine by me!)
/me runs out to join Tenshi’s New Flickr Group to show of her bewbs and tushie!
FYI – The Lyrics -
I don’t care what my teachers say
I’m gonna be a supermodel.
And Everyone is gonna dress like me,
wait and see
When I’m a supermodel
and my hair will shine like the sea.
Everyone will wanna look just like me
me…
Cause I’m young and I’m hip, and so beautiful,
I’m gonna be a supermodel
I’m young and I’m hip, and so beautiful,
I’m gonna be a supermodel
I wish that I was like Tori Spelling,
with a car like hers and dad like hers.
And I show them how how it was done.
That be fun, that be fun.
And I write my schoolreport,
why I love my jeans, why I love my jeans.
And oh, on my lockerdoor its the coolest thing that you have ever seen.
Cause I’m young and I’m hip and so beautiful,
I’m gonna be a supermodel
I’m young and I’m hip and so beautiful,
I’m gonna be a supermodel
I didn’t eat yesterday,
I’m not gonna eat today,
I’m not gonna eat tomorrow,
Cuz I’m gonna be a supermodel.
so beautiful…….I’m gonna be a supermodel
I’m young and I’m hip and so beautiful,
I’m gonna be a supermodel
[4x]
I’m gonna be a supermodel.
I’m gonna be a supermodel.
poor swirly
The fact guy stepped down her self from faces say’s alot for the agency itself rather then them saying we cant support thinso.
I saw the flicka pic’s an was horrified even triangle who i loved said i love thinspo again maybe she didn’t know what it meant.
But im even more shocked with guy’s comments and swirly kicked out swirly i’m sure metro nex-core or ewing will take you on haha x x x x x
But just an added note none of this will change guy’s mind no one will.
So no point in trying its a disease unless she ask’s for help or she’s like hit on the head.
Member’s have left the group since this all started not surpriced Aradia left it. I mean how much bad press can you get.
I thought I’d never be back here commenting but this topic does touches home for me both as a person with a not healthy past in the eating department and as someone who studied the pro ana community and the varies forms of EDs.
1) 90% of pro anas are actually overweight, have no risk of coming up any kind of ed and are the there for the public attention, be it positive or negative.
2) body dysmorphia and anorexia nervousa are two different animals
3) some one with a real ed does not need to look at pictures to get motived towards the slow suicide which is what the ED is really is.
4) BMSD is a lifestyle, anorexia/bulimia are mental illness with many effects of the individual’s physical health.
5) the other extreme is not any healthier, being overweight has it’s own list of problems and at some cases it is an eating disorder as well(compulsive overeating)
It was only a matter of time before pro-ana found its way into Second Life, after all, it’s a huge community on the internet in general.
When I first came across a pro-ana group in a blogging site, I was both horrified and intrigued. I read through it for hours, discussed it with a friend, trying to figure out why on earth someone would get together with friends and write to encourage others to needlessly suffer. Denying yourself food voluntarily goes against every natural instinct, but people are doing it. Why?
Blaming the fashion industry, Hollywood, or (silliest of all) “men”, is kind of ignoring the problem. Reading the stories of these people online, they all had things in common. Most had tried to suicide before, most cut themselves, most had been abused as kids, a lot were using drugs like meth or cocaine. They started off unhappy and self-hating, and found a way to slowly destroy themselves because it made them feel they had power over their lives, for once.
Now, the fashion industry itself is disgusting for encouraging models to starve themselves… I know this firsthand (when you’re told at 5’7″ that your goal should be 90 lbs, or stuck doing lingerie & swimwear all the time because you’re bigger than an A cup, it’s a little concerning and part of the reason I quit.) Skinny models also provide, like in Guy’s flickr group, “thinspiration.”
I don’t know that blaming “society” is an answer, however… except, perhaps, that role models today are based on appearance rather than ability, intelligence, or talent for young women. Blame that society’s obsessed with youth and perfection and appearance rather than useful traits, then. If you start off self-hating, and think you only have your appearance to offer the world, then it might make sense to you to try and look like a fashion model or celebrity or pop star.
This is hardly anything new though. Everytime someone says that eating disorders are a new thing I can only shake my head. Women in the Royal court during the French revolution were measured and had to have a 13″ waist, maximum. You can’t tell me they were any happier about their bodies than we are today. People also forget that men used to wear corsets, too… and the only anorexic I’ve known in RL was a boy.
I don’t really feel angry about the Thinspo group in SL, I just feel sad for them that they focus on a mental illness rather than the creative possibilities of a world where you can do and be anything.
For the record, I’ve never asked a model to “slim down” in Second Life… body changes requested were more for accurate proportions, a height difference on the runway, or shapes for needs like system skirts or bare feet. I have a skinny avatar, though. That means nothing. It’s just what I chose for Second Life. I could’ve been plump, too. I’d rather see a uniquely beautiful avatar, be it curvy or short or tall or skinny, than yet another clone with a purchased shape.
I have a bit different experience with the fashion world in this. When I was a model for a short time irl I was told by the agency not to try to loose any weight and I was like 110 lbs at 5’7″. They also told me that going trough bed won’t help me to get succesful hah. It actually kind of surprised me. I didn’t do runway tho..I did some photoshoots..and quit after some time..but not that much because of some pressures on me. I just did not feel comfortable with it all that much. (And I was scared I would get lost on Tokio where they wanted to send me for summer holiday when I was 16 lolol). The other models didnt seem to be anorectic or so either. There for example was a girl that only ate fruits..but I had a feeling she didnt get that from the agency. All the other girls were happy for any food during work and really didnt seem to have a problem with stuffing themselves with pizza or so. (and there was no massive running to throw up at the toilet after taht either) I actually have a feeling even the fruitarian gal ate pizza and all teh fruit was more like a pose o.O dunno.
It seems kind of split up..somewhere they dont let models that are too thin on the runway and somewhere they still encourage the skinniness.
I did know one girl that was close to getting anorectic tho. One of my classmates. She was nowhere close to a model. She was a sports freak..basketball player that wanted to become a police offer and that had winnie teh pooh on her pencil case. o.O
*nods* I think it’s different if you do runway and where they want to promote you.. at the time they were looking at Europe for me and wanted me to be suppppper skinny… claiming because I was “short” I’d have to be that thin to compete. I think the measurements they wanted were like 32″ 21″ 32″ or something stupid. o.O
Catalogue modelling I think you’re aimed to be closer to something attainable by humans. LOL. Because the clothing is more wearable than typical runway fare.
I only got to do hair anways lol…not such need for some body type there. :p but I guess thats cause I left early cause I remember that they would prefer me being taller too, heh. But I am getting off-topic so I am gonna drop it here and go to bed.
Being helth and slim don´t mean you need to kill yourself by eating disorders when something like that comes up i momently see a fat ugly women behind the scream playing sl and trying to bring midia on her name, well shame on it its not right and many people in rl have this problem, when i was 15 i had anorexia and i lost 30 kg in 1 month i still have some eating disorder problems and i really wish ms Guy stop selling this image to people because anorexia is a no end street when you get into it it´s hard to get out and its painful.
I´m really sorry to hear it =(
In a way, I can understand why someone would start a group like this. I’m a real life, self hating fattie who has struggled with her weight her whole life. I wish I could be one of those women who is confident about her extra pounds, but I’m not. I want to be thin and normal. The only thing that’s kept me from developing an eating disorder is the fact that I don’t have enough willpower to be an anorexic. Second Life is the perfect outlet for those of us who wish someone could wave a magic wand and make us thin.
While I do enjoy being slender on SL, I also think that proportions really do matter. I remember being in a meeting with a club owner (I’m a DJ) whose avi was insanely, horribly thin- she literally had a lollipop head. It completely drove me to distraction- couldn’t she see that her avi looked ridiculous? Doesn’t she understand how the sliders work? Does she really want to be that thin? I don’t know if she’s a member of this thinspo group, or if that was her motivation for being that skinny, but it was a good reminder that, yes, you really CAN be too thin!
This is an interesting topic. I am no avid second life player, but while I was playing I was surprised by the similarity of everyones avatars. I did not see many skinny avatars, but rather huge voluptously curvy and tall avatars or pumped up musclemen. And it seemed many people have the same mentality about “fixing” their virtual appearance.
The one similar thing I did notice was that everybody made their avatar’s faces perfect. Unrealistically large almond eyes, rhinoplastied small noses, and huge collogened lips.
Everyone wanted to achieve that “perfectly proportioned baby face” look, yet unique looks are so discouraged. I made my avatar’s face have a large nose, small eyes, and thin lips. The next thing I know, a lady I met in a store is offering to help me “fix” my avatar’s shape.
When I gave her my shape, she pumped up the lips, downsized the nose, and enlarged/asianized the eyes. She also made my avatar “curvier” and downsized the shoulders.
I have BDD (body dysmorphic disorder) and for me Second Life seemed like a very shallow game just like the real world. Even if they are FAKE virtual avatars, it is promoting unrealistic ideals of physique. Even when they are hiding behind a virtual identity, people still feel the need to make their identity look flawless and perfected to a specific beauty ideal. Perhaps this goes to show that many people are insecure and feel pressure to conform to society’s standards?
HY i’m starting to be an ANA and i like it, i had a baby 18 months ago and i still cannot loose weight . i don’t wan to be supper skinny of course not, but at least be what i was b4 having my baby. cuz already try work out, eat healthy etc, but nothin is working. ana is working 4 me, i see the results.
yesterday i only ate some cereal and a banana and i feel good, i know health is important but in this crazy world being thin is also important and not bcuz i say so. look at th runways, magazines, celebs they’re all r skinny.
well i guess datz it tnx 4 reading me
by da way sorry 4 my english im from mexico, HAVE A NICE DAY
NADIE DIJO NUNKA KE SER UN PRINCESA FUERA FACIL
@ thinspired – there is a difference in choosing to make your SL avatar slender, and being pro-anorexic. I am sure there are a lot of people who do the same thing, but still recoil at the idea of being anorexic, and don’t aspire to that ideal.
Sammy, do NOT cave in and make your avatar look like everyone else-I got a fair share of comments for my avatar as well, and my alt, Rhian Jenkins (everyone knows it’s me anyway) got badmouthed, too- I’m too short, my butt and hips are too big and my nose probably, too, and I don’t have anime eyes. Rhian is the thin girl, but not ana-thin, just skinny and with a wonky face, because yes, you CAN have asymmetric features, and it’s something I think not enough people explore. I love avatars that deviate from the babie doll norm, and it also makes them fare more memorable. My fiance actually made his avatar as pudgy as his RL self-he has a TUMMY! OMG!
/me sighs
I just don’t get the appeal.
There is a HUGE difference between having a thin body, creating a thin avatar, wanting to lose a few pounds and anorexia or being pro-ana. Anorexia is classified in the DSM IV as a mental illness. The causes of it go so far beyond simply wanting to be skinny or thinking skinny is pretty. Eating disorders of all kinds – restriction and over-consumption are essentially obsessive compulsive disorders because of the obsession with food, one’s body, weight, and losing weight. The effects of anorexia and bulimia go so far beyond just being skinny. A Flickr group extolling the virtues of alcoholism or lung cancer would be met with disgust and horror and this truly is no different.
Body Dysmorphic Disorder, another related mental disorder, is what happens when what you see when you look at yourself is actually not an accurate depiction of your body, like when a severely underweight individual still sees themselves as “fat”. I was hospitalized with anorexia 8 years ago. Another girl on my floor related a story of her flight to the treatment center during which she did jumping jacks in the back of the plane because, when sitting still, she could see the fat growing on her thighs. She was 82 pounds at 5’9″ when she was admitted. You could hardly see skin on her thighs, let alone fat.
For me and for the other women I met in treatment (of course men suffer from it too, there just weren’t any male patients there when I was), it was completely and totally about control. While I couldn’t control my family or my professors or my friends and I couldn’t control the misery I was feeling because of other things in my life, I COULD control my own body. When I felt like I was losing control of a situation or out of control of my life, I regained that power in the only way knew how – by controlling what I ate. There was a sense of satisfaction I still haven’t achieved in any other way when I made it through a day on less than 500 calories. Or ate a lunch that consisted of 4 grapes and 2 leafs of lettuce. Even at the time, I knew intellectually that it was unhealthy and stupid, but the relief was akin to what I’ve heard cutters experience. Waking up from a dream where I’d eaten an entire fridge of food only to remember I hadn’t strayed from my diet was exhilarating. I could make everything right in the world with dinner, or more appropriately, lack there of. Treatment wasn’t about just eating or gaining weight… it was about digging in to all of the control issues that lead me to where I was. And it was about learning new, healthy, habits to deal with them instead of restricting or purging.
That was a long back story to get to the actual point of this comment. I used “thinspiration” photographs, too. I obsessively found images of models with pronounced clavicles or bony wrists and extruding hip bones. Those were the parts of my body that I used to judge my success and so I used those models as a gauge and motivator. It was another form of obsession, another thing for my unwell mind to dwell on instead of facing the other issues in my life.
I see groups like this in SL, on Flickr, on YouTube and other blogging sites, and my reaction is complicated.
My heart breaks for those people who seem to be totally consumed and overtaken by an illness – the same emotion I would feel watching someone suffer with cancer.
I’m disgusted when I see people jumping on to the “fad” aspect of it as it’s a disease that is anything but glamorous. I sacrificed 9 months away from school, from my friends and family, from my cat… My parents paid a disgusting amount of money when my insurance stopped covering treatment so that I could get well. It wasn’t glamorous. It was painful and scary and infuriating and some of the hardest work I’ve ever done to get to the other side of my disease. And I’m one of the lucky ones. There were some girls I met who I don’t believe will ever make it out of the black hole that is body dysmorphia and eating disorders.
And I’d be lying if I didn’t admit that there’s a part of me that feels that tinge of familiarity at the sense of satisfaction I would have had putting together some of the thinspo collages.
Regardless of what this woman looks like in “real life” and whether or not she simply wants attention, the feelings she and others are expressing in this Flickr group have them balancing on the edge of a lifetime of pain that will not only destroy them, but those around them. And any public forum that encourages that sort of damage is damn near criminal in my mind.
I guess what I’m trying to say at the end of this short novel is that my reaction isn’t to the size of the avatars photographed but instead to the mindset this group was created with and what it’s attempting to encourage. I pray this woman can get the help she needs and anyone else struggling with those feelings finds the same, too.
For the love of god, princessmaleny, stop what you’re doing to yourself. You have a baby that needs and relies on you. While you may be seeing results now and not feel physically unhealthy, this is a very slippery slope that will destroy your mind, your body and your family. Your body is a magical, blessed thing – all you need to do is look at your baby to see that… a few extra pounds doesn’t change that. Please, please, please stop thinking that “Ana” is the right choice for you and get some professional help. I was 21 and ripped away from my family and it was horrible… I couldn’t imagine if I had a baby at home needing me when I was physically unable to care for myself let alone someone else.
Whelp, at least we know why everyone has some kind of negative self-image, physically. Check this shit out.
iWANEX STUDIO – Professional Photo Retouching Services: http://www.iwanexstudio.com/
Click “Portfolio” and then click an image. When you mouse over it, you’ll get to see the original. Click the image to close and pick another.
I saw the pic of Carrie Underwood – DISGUSTING! They took a normal sized girl, and reduced her all over! How pathetic?! She looks FINE!
Tenshi, last year a Dutch TV reporter went to Cali and had a plastic surgeon look at her vagina. He then noted some “problems” he could “fix”- I won’t get into details. For about 3000US$ the surgeon would give her a “Playboy vagina”.
Playboy vaginas are, needless to say, Photoshopped. We’re *that far* down the line and it looks like we’ll be going a bit further still. Pretty soon someone will start aborting “ugly” babies. And no, I am not kidding about that last comment.
I feel so sad about all this, especially the comment about having a baby and not being able to lose the weight.
I had a baby 6 months ago and I too can’t shift the weight, and how did I shift the weight from my first child? By bringing up almost everything that passed my lips, and let me tell you, unless you stick to doing that for the rest of your life, the weight creeps back on.
I’m not huge in RL, but i’m certainly not small and yes, i’d like to be smaller, but shit.. I wouldn’t ever go that route again, I thought it was fantastic at the time, but it soon took it’s toll on me physically and emotionally and I was no good to man nor beast, especially not my family.
Diets are a sticky subject for me, i’ve battled with up and down weight all my life, and I wish I could stick to something that keeps me at the weight i’d like to be, but I enjoy the finer things in life too much and hell, I have a guy that adores me WHATEVER weight I am, so it’s all about how I feel, and I feel pressured to be smaller, to look good, but i’m not going to kill myself to do it.
I wish I could link to a magazine article I just read, from the pen of a 15 year old girl that has nobody in the world left for her, because she only had her mother, and her mother died from the toll of the eating disorder she had, a fifteen year old CHILD, alone in the world because her mother felt she should be smaller, prettier.. whatever.
That, is the saddest thing of all, eating disorders don’t just affect you, they affect everyone around you and I don’t think that’s anything to be shouting about.
I’m getting pissy about this subject now, I think I should stfu
I guess I just wanted to say, like I said earlier, I’ll happily go along with whatever floats anyones boats, everyone has their own opinions and they are entitled to them, but before people stomp around promoting this shit, they should think about who else it affects, cos it sure as shit ain’t just them.
I always touch up RL photos i take for fashion stuff.
i also love the hallie berry doesnt change barly AT all silly inhuman attractive woman
SL seems to bring out the crazies, but this is criminally insane. If this is on the adult grid, is he getting members? I can’t find the group. Is this ‘freedom of speech’, or can we report this idiot?
(Somewhat off topic)
To Willis -
FYI, my favorite, most successful way to ‘diet’ is low carb, low fat. I ‘graze’ all day, eating nuts and plant and animal-based protein snacks, also fresh ‘green’ veggies (well, red bell peppers, too, but no root vegetables) and lower carb fruit strawberries and pineapple – daily. No white flour or refined sugar, in fact, nothing made with a [refined] grain, basically, no starchy foods. I avoid butter, but use oils. I started this in February 15th this year, and lost 28 pounds by April 1st. I have maintained a healthy weight for my height (5′ 7″ , 140) naturally. I eat when I’m hungry and don’t gain constantly like I used to when I ate ‘normally’.
My parents did a version of this diet last fall, with 35 grams of carbs per meal, and both have lost 60 lbs and are maintaining a normal weight easily. I believe I eat fewer than 75 carbs per day, I don’t count calories. This is not the extreme ‘Atkins’ method. It’s slower, but much more ‘livable’ and balanced.
My 2 cents
-V
@Victoria
Yes! This is the one my partner is doing at the moment, not that he needs to lose an ounce, but it’s keeping him fit and healthy, I kinda follow it myself, but my downfall is cakes! It’s more about self control with me, and having a baby I tend to “forget” to eat then end up snacking on something ridiculous!
Thanks
hahahah loves it
re: http://www.iwanexstudio.com/
I liked the original photos better in most cases. I always know when an image of a person has been photoshopped to hell and beyond ‘cos there’s no pores… and have tried to refrain from that in RL. SO FAR, no one’s asked me to make the model “thinner” in an ad. I think it’s only a matter of time though.
I actually like seeing skin texture (in the last image with the model with the dark eyes, why the hell was that even Photoshopped? She has cute freckles!) and so on. Even in beauty ads. I’d rather see natural glowing skin than airbrushed to hell and beyond.
I think it’s acceptable to photoshop arms in SL fashion photos. The mesh doesn’t do arms well, makes them flabby no matter what.
my girlfriend gas an eating disorder called bulimia, she always throws up what she eats.*`”