Good Morning!
Posted on 16. Jan, 2009 by Tenshi Vielle in Gossip, Wall of Shame
Got something for you to enjoy your coffee over. Bianca Fulton vs. Musium… and Bianca’s piece came first. This was dropped into my email this morning.
This one’s “Bianca’s”, created in ‘07.
This is Musium, created in ‘08.
Kinda sucks to photosource when you use the same one, doesn’t it? The only person who can scream content theft over this one is whomever owns the original top and the consequential online photographs of the top. This whole thing surprises me, since both places are revered as such “original designers”. (I’m lying about the ’surprise’ part.) Bah humbug.
Jennifer
Jan 16th, 2009
~yawn~
Iris Seale
Jan 16th, 2009
To be entirely fair, this is dumb.
There IS a good way to photosource, and Muism does it right.
They actually draw on top of the photo, removing imperfections and softening the lines. They add prims to make the sleeves, neck and hem look good. They’ve improved the design, not just pasted it onto the template.
Bianca F is sloppy and lazy, not even really bothering to remove the halos from her work. From a designer’s perspective, I know it took Bianca about five minutes to make that top and the accompanying sculpties. It’s literally a matter of grabbing the images off the web, slapping them on the template where they fall, and uploading the final piece.
Sorry, Bianca, you get no love from SCD. Bad designer, BAD!
Dahlia Eilde
Jan 16th, 2009
I find this especially amusing considering Muism is so quick to accuse another designer of copying their wholly original ideas.
steinerweiner
Jan 16th, 2009
Both creators are overrated.
Stella Semaphore
Jan 16th, 2009
yadda yadda yadda
Maryna Wind
Jan 16th, 2009
It doesn’t matter who did the better job. It is still photosoursed. And I really don’t appriciate such designers.
SarahTheRed
Jan 16th, 2009
And the same sourced top can be found on a dress that was one of the PoE gifties.
Tiffer GG
Jan 16th, 2009
has to agree with stein in saying both are over-rated. i think muism is overpriced. and bianca’s stuff looks great in her ads-but looks like crap on.
Chav Paderborn
Jan 16th, 2009
What % of SL clothes are made from photos? I tried it ages ago but it always just looked weird.
Lysana McMillan
Jan 16th, 2009
And I think there are similar gathers in a halter set I bought from League. What’s the point, exactly? That certain fabrics are going to look the same when gathered, I’d say.
Danielle Harrop
Jan 16th, 2009
When I first started, I photosourced. Now I don’t. I think if you’re going to photo-source, then you can’t call it original, you can call it “personally enhanced. Taking a photo, stretching it and recoloring it isn’t original work.
just my 2 cents
Melanie
Jan 16th, 2009
I remember seeing that Muism blouse on the feed months ago, and I thought it looked nice so I went to the store.
Found the vendor, took one look at the price, and TP’d out.
Gidge
Jan 16th, 2009
Yawns.
Meh.
Yawns again. I’m bored with them both.
Now, if they were fighting in the streets, you’d have my attention.
admin
Jan 16th, 2009
What I like is that Bianca is a “RL designer” and … well, is this one of her “RL design” imports? Photosourced? lol
The both need to be more creative.
Some Random Chick
Jan 16th, 2009
Meh. I would care more if Musium didn’t price gouge.
Chez Nabob
Jan 16th, 2009
Just a little nit here as I’d like to address a point that has been nagging me on blog posts such as these over the years.
There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING unethical, immoral or illegal about photosourcing (provided you have been granted rights to the photo from which you are sourcing). This is par for the course in 3D animation and the CGI industries.
While I do not photosource in SL (I just happen to think it looks a little too realistic and out of place in the more “cartoonish” world of SecondLife) I regularly photosource in my RL projects. I would say 90% of the time I use photo reference that I or one of my colleagues has shot ourselves to be free of any rights restrictions that may come in to play with purchased textures.
On the rare occurrence that I do use a photo that I did not shoot, I make certain that I have ironclad rights to use the photo in the way I’m intending to use it.
If your personal conviction is that it’s “cheating” to use a photo as part of a texture then don’t do it or don’t purchase items from designers who photosource and leave it at that.
But don’t say that people who do photosource are doing something illegal or unethical or are somehow less creative (provided they are operating within the rights they’ve been granted) because it is simply not true.
Having done this kind of thing for my entire professional life I assure you that it takes just as much skill to create a texture from “scratch” as it does to create one in which you are photosourcing. Each have their respective challenges, generally require heavy doses of manipulation and are both valid ways of creating a texture.
I have no idea where Bianca Fulton or Muisim got this texture, but let’s give them the benefit of the doubt that they have the right to use the photo reference in the manner they have until proven otherwise.
At this point I’d equate this to showing up at a function wearing the same outfit as someone else. Slightly embarrassing (or incredibly funny depending on how you choose to look at it), but hardly criminal or unethical.
Just reading back through this I can see where some might take this as a bit preachy. Certainly not my intention, and if it’s taken that way then chalk it up to the subject being a pet peeve of mine and accept my apologies.
Echo
Jan 16th, 2009
The neck cut looks the same, that combind with the photosourcing seems to be suspicious. Muism is so glad to scream content theft that this is amusing.
blahblahblahwhatever
Jan 16th, 2009
Iris – WHAT? They both look the same to me. Musium (LMAO) is highly overrated. I visited the shop with a friend not long ago and left with a bad taste in my mouth. Im not going to pay you $400L for a shirt i can get for $150L elsewhere, just as good. Same goes for bluegrave. No thanks. quit ripping people off. Both these brands use shit they have no legal right to be using and then whine and gripe when someone steals from them. SL is slowly going down hill. Glad i dont have to log in anymore.
*Grabs a glass of juice and walks outside*
blahblahblahwhatever
Jan 16th, 2009
@ Chez – youre correct, and it bugs me too when people see a photosourced outfit and immidiately assume its illegal. it isnt, as you state. AS LONG as they were legally allowed to be using the photo. The problem is, MANY designers in SL have no legal right to be using the photos they use, many of the images can be found when you run a quick google search. this has happened so often people who dont understand copyright law, are just assuming any photosourced clothing has been “stolen”… not the case all the time, but sometime it is. I cant really blame them for thinking this but I do think your post was needed because its also extremely unfair to label a CC a thief (Ahem Maryna Wind) when one has no idea if this creator has taken the legal steps to have the commercial rights to use the photo or not.
>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Oh i also wanted to comment on the article which states, “This whole thing surprises me, since both places are revered as such “original designers”
Are they really?
Musiums male skin looks like a watered down FNKY skin to me. A bunch of their other stuff is questionable as well. Ok now im really going out. Toodles!
blahblahblahwhatever
Jan 16th, 2009
^^ A piece of my post got hidden somehow I guess i accidentally used a HTML tag in there
I was saying
DOES
PHOTOSOURCING = ILLEGAL? NO!
ILLEGALLY PHOTOSOURCING = ILLEGAL? YES.
People need to read up on copyright laws and educae themselves on what is and is not against the law.
Genna Gray
Jan 16th, 2009
I think that people need to look at the importance of things not only based on legality but on ethics. Just because something is legal, doesn’t mean it’s ethical, and unfortunately that is all too often ignored.
Anyway, I didn’t realize the dates of creation on this, but over a year ago I had contacted a rep from Muism letting her know that I had found that same blouse at BF and asking if it was an issue that they were so similar. That rep said that obviously both designers had been inspired from the same original creation, but that she didn’t see a problem with it. Has anyone actually contacted either designer to get their comment?
Chez Nabob
Jan 16th, 2009
@Genna
To quote from my comment above:
“There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING unethical, immoral or illegal about photosourcing (provided you have been granted rights to the photo from which you are sourcing).”
Genna Gray
Jan 16th, 2009
Yep. Sometimes people have permission, but most of them don’t bother “because it’s SL”. However, since we don’t know if either has permission or not, that is why I am asking if anyone has bothered to find out from them.
blahblahblahwhatever
Jan 16th, 2009
@ Genna. Im wondering why you think photosourcing is so unethical granted creator has legal rights to the photo. How is it unethical?
We discussed a few blogs back that people who copy RL clothing exactly, though legal, is unethical in certain ways. That I understand. But how is taking some wrinkles and sourcing it, unethical? Not understanding that.
I guess it can lead back to the prior convo. May be unethical if the creator is claiming the design is originally theirs, but most people know when they see something sourced that its not the creators original creation….
Genna Gray
Jan 16th, 2009
Ugh I didn’t say photosourcing was unethical. I said that it’s unethical if you don’t have permission to copy and paste their work.
bex
Jan 16th, 2009
Both these designers claim to create their own designs.
Neither one of these examples leads me to believe that.
Jhuzen Ketsugo
Jan 17th, 2009
/me already felt like a doofus for cam shopping in Muism and accidentally buying the Fat-Pack of THIS VERY blouse in every possible colour and print, at almost choked when she saw that her L$ balance had gone down THAT much. (It was my first time at Muism.)
Now I can hardly blog them again! LMAO! I am full of WIN!!!!1!!
~ Ketsy
Cat
Jan 17th, 2009
I’d love to see more features on clothing on SCD which isn’t photo sourced. Good hand drawn clothing seems to be very difficult to find.
Jula Carnell
Jan 17th, 2009
@ cat, me too. I would like to see how many of these designs are actually originals from the creators themselves.
I have to agree about Muism , very overpriced and really Ive never quite got the hype.
Love me x
Ana
Jan 17th, 2009
“It doesn’t matter who did the better job. It is still photosoursed. And I really don’t appriciate such designers.”
I agree. 100%.
Photosourcing is crap, and I still don’t think it’s “talent” to slap a picture onto the template.
If you’re photosourcing in the first place, don’t bother trying to say someone “stole” your work. Because you “stole” it yourself.
9 chances out of 10 photosourcing designers DO NOT get permissions. They just automatically think if it’s on the internet, they can use it!
Ana doesn’t support photosourcing. End of story.
Jonny Tobias
Jan 17th, 2009
I for one love photosourced clothes. But you forget to look at economics here with regards to pricing, its all supply and demand. If people are willing to pay for what they percieve as quality then they are allowed to make that choice. There are both good and bad designers in SL, hell, people even go buy shit copys of a dress that was made already by someone with much greater skill than they have! /me laughs
But I think that some people here do overlook some things in Muism due to the percieved high price. Initially I also thought prices were quite high, then I bought a outfit pack which had a top, pants, jacket with 2 versions, and shoes for what I consider to be a very reasonable price considering the level of quality of the items. But as I said before, to others, this might seem like a high price to pay, but if people are willing to pay for it then who are you to judge them? I mean, I can name a designer featured on this very blog itself not too long ago who I could come out and say is very overpriced (they should be freebies, even then it is too much, lol) , but people will still buy that shit anyway.
As for me personally I will continue to shop at Muism without a doubt. Ice and Migi make great clothes (yes this is my opinion and you are not required to agree) and they have made some of the most innovative clothes in my inventory, with their jackets leading the way with prim designs which gave new life to my wardrobe (again an opinion you don’t have to agree with). I still love my Yeti fur coats, and I haven’t seen anyone else making anything similar thankfully.
My 2 cents…..
blahblahblahwhatever
Jan 17th, 2009
Mmhmm everyone is allowed to have their own opinion. The beauty of life in general, first and second, is all the different options we have. Those options are needed because not everyone likes the same thing. I personally hate musium ( : D ) and i think we, well they, can thank Kmadd for hyping them up. I dont like what they have to offer other than one of the scarves they make, which is a great scarf. Other than that, the products are just “ok.” But if people like them, they have a right to and if musium is their preference , thats just the beauty of life and options. I see nothing wrong with people who like this brand, and if they want to pay the insane prices.. then ok. But buy it for the right reason. if youre buying cus the brand is hyped and you think it makes you cool to wear it – you need to take a step outside and enjoy the fresh air.(IN RL!)
The problem I think is some hand drawn clothing looks a bit TOO fake. (This is in response to people who say they want good hand drawn clothing). My favorite is hand drawn with a bit of sourcing. Like sourcing the buttons, or zippers, or some folds. I think the grid is not ready for 100% photosource, as mentioned by Chez I believe (?) it looks too real for avatars who still look more on the cartoon side.
Photosourcing does take skill, in a different way. You still need to line up the seams and if you want to do it right you need to add custom shading, etc. But my utmost respect is for those who hand draw. IMO that is where the real raw talent is. (Assuming theyre not just copying designs from RL boutiques)
And if people want to photosource they need to stop leaving the original items design or brand name on it. Thats infringement folks.
@ Ana Nah *good* photosourcing takes more then just slapping a photo on a template. You have to cut stuff out and line up seams. But I agree with you about if one photosources they can not say someone stole it. That is beyond me why someone would even think they have a right to do that.
I think its wrong to assume all who photosource stole. We all have clothing in our closests do we not? If you didnt have clothing in a closet, what would you have? Air? Grass? A piece of lemon juice to be perhaps? No. You got clothing. And its not that hard for someone to take their own photos of their clothing to use for sourcing in SL. (But yeah id probably tend to agree that 9/10 dont do this
)
Ciao
AlaskaMetro
Jan 17th, 2009
…Then support content creators who hand draw. We exist. We have less stock, because it takes us longer to make our items, so we appear less prolific. We’re often overlooked because of this. If consumers care about handdrawn content, look towards the creators who make it: Simone, Callie Cline, Aphrodite, me (LOL), Canimals, Nicky Ree… I just named those off the top of my head but there’s hundreds. Wear ‘em and blog ‘em instead. Often the prices are lower too. Heck, I think Tenshi handdraws her stuff also, though not owning much of it I can’t say.
I think that my main issue with photosourced clothing is that it does look good in vendor photos, but terrible once it’s on your avatar in world. Same with heavily photosourced skins, really. I see it all the time on models in SL… gorgeous skin in photos, in-world they look like Frankenstein.
I guess it’s a taste thing though.
And yeah, it’s whoever owns the copyright for the photo, not the item of RL clothing. It’s legal if I, say, took my own photos of an RL shirt and used that. My limit is laying fabric samples (tweed, denim, knit) on the scanner, though.
Kender
Jan 17th, 2009
I don’t like the creators of Muism. Way too egotistical. Plus they copied Ocean Lane’s styles from the beginning and then framed him. And Bianca…
*rolls eyes*
Isn’t this like her second case of theft?
Lila Axel
Jan 17th, 2009
Personally I like Musiums version of the blouse better, mostly because the sculpted parts look nicer and the shirt as a whole looks like more time was put in to it. On the question of sourcing being a moral issue: I dont personally find it unethical to do so as long as the creator isn’t touting themselves as original or that they hand draw their items. The stuff my and Niki make for our store is almost 99% handrawn, and maybe 1% of it is sourced (i.e. sometimes we see buttons that are cute or part of a belt that we want to use)…and I dont think its a problem since we try our hardest to keep our items original and unique to AXEL. I think if someone is going to totally photosource a piece of clothing, maybe charge 50L at the most for it- not some ridiculously high price that one would expect to pay for a totally original creation.
It irks me to hear creators trying to pull the rug out from under their competitors for copying their designs, pointing fingers and calling designers thieves when they themselves entirely sourced their creation.
marni grut
Jan 18th, 2009
i hand draw!
I do use overlays for fabric tho, however i scan in fabric for those simply to get ether a decent size repeat or if i don’t have the fabric i use legit stock.
Iv been making some print recently to do a printed capsule collection and i could just rip it, but i keep finding that it looks awful and I’m better off drawing it.
I don’t disagree with photo-sourcing per say, but i often find theirs a type of style it has and that’s not me.
There is stuff out there but unfortunate no way of knowing. and then the problem comes in, if the person took the photo of clothing they owned? that means its there photo. And Rl clothing cant be copyrighted (in SL terms theirs stitching and hems involved it gets technical, sofia can tell you more than me)
I think just buy what you like, stop worrying as much and someday karma will catch up to unethical designers I’m sure.
Chez Nabob
Jan 18th, 2009
@Kender
And how exactly do you know this is a case of theft on Bianca Fulton’s part?
Are you familiar with the photosource she used here?
Do you know where she got it?
Why does the fact that she (or Musim) used a photo mean automatically that it’s stolen?
Or are you privy to some nugget of information to which everyone else is unaware at the moment?
I don’t really have a horse in this race, but it bugs the hell out of me that a lot of folks are ready to convict someone over something without having all the facts or because they have a personal hangup about the “morality” of photosourcing.
Luv Rubble
Jan 18th, 2009
There are lots of web sites where you can buy the license for different clothes. I’ve seen a few that are bits and bobs of SL designers creations.
Some are free, some charge up to 10,000 L’s.
I am so tired of people crying wolf!
If SL designers buy the same license for the same dresses they both have the same right to use it. Maybe they do not want us to know, they really did not create the item, but just bought the rights!
Shana
Jan 18th, 2009
Must agree that a good combo of photosourcing and hand drawn overlay looks best, and just slapping on photos doesn’t really work. Even Iris photosources/scans paper towels- someone contact Brawny STAT!
(jk)
The funny part is that these folds would not be THAT hard to create with dodge/burn- they are pretty basic.
I wondered- it says Bianca VS. Muism is Bianca F actually accusing Muism of theft? Or is this just an observational post?
Iris Seale
Jan 18th, 2009
Shana: Apparently it’s an ‘anonymous’ email that made the rounds to pretty much every blog in existence.
And you’re right, there are grey areas in photosourcing. Although, I say, if you own the pic you’re using then go for it. Is anyone going to tell House of Nyla that she can’t photosource outfits from the RL clothes she makes?
A lot of times I’ll scan in fabric swatches from my giant swatch collection to use as an overlay (No, I don’t normally use paper towels
Just that once to make a point, I swear!) But I should point out that you barely notice the overlay by the time the designer is done with the outfit. I usually end up with about 25+ layers in my clothes and if I asked you to pick out the fabric overlay, I imagine you’d have a pretty hard time.
But, if you can take a photo, work your magic on it (and I do mean actually WORK) and have it come out as something amazingly cool in SL, then go for it. There’s not really an ethical issue if you’re expressing yourself and not going for a quick buck. If you’re not copying, I’m probably not going to rain on your creative parade.
I like Muism. I think they do it great, in that their product is better than the original source.
admin
Jan 18th, 2009
As you can see, Iris and I disagree on this issue.
Michael B
Jan 18th, 2009
Someone should check the validity of a story before posting about it. It doesnt take long to check that what your being told is correct. You can read this at http://slinworldtoday.com/ so much for realiable media when Ammon Pera just makes things up and sub,its them to everywhere annonymously to try to destroy a designers work. Something the rest of you designers should be wary of.
As for photosourcing? Really who cares. Secondlife is full of it and as long as people keep buying it its not going away.
Chavvy Oh
Jan 18th, 2009
Well as someone whos not a designer I look for quality before I purchase anything. Photo-sourced or not some people have the skill to make a product fantastic, some don’t.
As the previous poster has said though, Ammon Pera and his group are renowned for trying to destroy peoples reputations using their website to abuse and harrass people outside the control of Linden Labs.
They seem to like people one moment and hate them the next, for whatever reason, who knows but they certainly have a vendetta for the folks at Muism, who I have always found to be approachable and professional.
I checked the link above and there has certainly been a little deception played. I would just like to warn all designers, this could happen to you. Be careful and steer clear of Ammon Pera and his co-horts, they have a terrible reputation especially within the gay community of Secondlife.
unk
Jan 18th, 2009
As the person who sent this in, I can guarantee that the blouse was purchased in 2007. I can also guarantee that I’m not Ammon Pera, although I shared the information with them and let SCD know what I was doing. Perhaps jumping to conclusions because you are stalking someone and not being aware of the fact that this shirt was available regardless of prim alterations before Muism’s might help you. You really should check the validity of your story before posting. Prims can lie.
Echo
Jan 18th, 2009
I hate to tell Michael, but I just looked in my inv and found the shirt with the properties telling me I acquired it on 12/14/07. Do any other ladies have this shirt that they acquired before 2008?
Yenn
Jan 18th, 2009
Both of those tops look wrong to me. I don’t like when there are such huge wrinkles on a flat surface. It is just weird. I guess the Muism top is handled a bit better with the primwork and stuff…still wouldn’t buy it heh. The top From Binaca looks like it should be way looser at the bottom…the wrinkles spread out where the avatar shape gets thinner.
I am not much of a fan of photosourcing. I don’t mind it when it is done well…I mean..it’s not that easy to make realistic looking ripped jeans without photosourcing…but I hate when it is so obvious that it is photosourced.
Bree
Jan 18th, 2009
I knew I had it. It was hard to find though. I got it Dec. 15 2007. It must’ve been advertised or something. Maybe it’s coincidence we got it almost the same day.
Patou Dumont
Jan 18th, 2009
IMHO both designs sucks. I dislike photosource, as I can do a better job creating a piece of clothing using a photo I found on the net than most of these “designers” and spending only 10L to upload (and no, I won’t sell/give it to you). I only buy clothings in SL that are drawn.
Jenny
Jan 18th, 2009
I also have this blouse 12/15/07. The people at slinworld run a hate blog against people with opinions against Muism and kmad. Of course she would rush into helping.
lynn
Jan 18th, 2009
What would be fun is a follow up on this with the 12/15/07 blouse with date. I took a look at the slworldtoday site and it’s so clear this woman has an animal up her ass. She speaks like Miss sl on a mission to save Muism. Well I also have this blouse so Miss sl on a mission is wrong.
Bree
Jan 18th, 2009
I just looked at the other stories on slinworldtoday.com and every other post seems to be against Ammon and invdaily.blogspot.com. Its laughable that they would claim to have a real story when anyone can look through the bulk of their stories and see that they’ve only done this because of invdaily.blogspot.com posting the story. I don’t believe them, I believe what’s in my inventory.
Whatever
Jan 18th, 2009
wonders how many people can tell if something is truly photosourced. While the example here seems to indicate sourcing, lots of things in SL that look photosourced are in fact hand made.
Painting shadows in hard light mode instead of soft light mode, and adjusting the curves and levels accordingly can give a very realistic impression. Just because something looks “real” does not mean it is not hand made.
Rumor
Jan 18th, 2009
I have the blouse from 11/8/07. I agree that it’s not the best, but for 2007 it was good. Creators have come a long way since then. As for photosourcing, I’ll wear it and think some of it looks great. I do disagree with claiming it’s original when you photosource. No more Muism or Bianca for me.
w/e
Feb 25th, 2009
This is so stupid. Photo sourcing isn’t wrong, get over it. I took 3D animation classes in college and we were taught how to photo source correctly with scanned photos or stock. So get over it! Geeeez!